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Penski
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PostSubject: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2013 1:23 pm

Wichita Red wrote on another thread...
noticed many authors refer to the Kid's gun as a Schofield....my curiosity is where is this reference from or did it just sound good. I am trying to stay with canon as far as his gun carrying choice.

bandit
Somewhere there was a BIG discussion of this. Most fanfic authors will say the Kid has a Colt .45 and Heyes has a Schofield. But where was that discussion? We were looking at photos of the two guns, especially Heyes' when they're saving Joe Simms from being hanged in The Bounty Hunter.

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2013 1:33 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2013 2:04 pm

I just made a post in the other thread about this. I have quite a bit of info on this, but can't figure out how to get it attached here.

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2013 4:57 pm

For anyone who doesn't want to go to Aimoo, and just in case something happens to the information on that site, here are all the posts in the thread for which Remuda provided a link above; these were posted between 6/26/10 and 8/8/10:


Penski:


Asked my 
friends who know guns (old guns and new) a few questions and thought I'd 
share. If you have a gun question, let me know and I'll ask them.

How 
far can a pistol shoot? Approximately 75 ft is a long distance for a 
pistol and even hard to shoot a man at that distance. In a story I'm 
writing, I have them shooting a small flower off a bush 60 ft away and 
the guys agreed it wasn't impossible, but you'd have to be an excellent 
marksmen to do it.

How long does it take to clean a gun? If the 
gun is getting daily proper cleanings, Kid would take 5 minutes to clean 
the dirt and corrosive powders out of his gun every night. The gun 
came apart in four main pieces: pin, barrel, handle, and bullet 
chamber. If the gun got wet, there were more pieces to remove and the 
cleaning would take much longer - about an hour. A gun cleaning kit was 
mainly a rag and some light oil. Even if Heyes didn't shoot his gun, 
he should clean it every day they are on the trail when the gun would 
get dust in it.

Doesn't it damage guns to be dropped? YES! They 
claim that only amateurs would have someone take a gun out of the 
holster with two fingers. There is still a risk of them drawing on you. 
The "use your left hand and two fingers" wasn't practical because you 
really can't reach your gun (try it). Professionals had someone remove 
their whole gun belt. The gun, staying in the holster, would be 
somewhat protected from being dropped.



Mary:


That's interesting Penski. I'd be 
interested to know how heavy the guns are. Do they vary in weight and 
how practical would it be for a woman who isn't used to handling guns 
to hold one steady enough to fire and hit anything or for any length of 
time. Also, am I correct in assuming there would be a "kick back" (sorry 
can't think of the right word) which would cause problems for the 
inexperienced?


 

Frankie:


For any of you still interested in the 
guns used, there is a very detailed discussion on the topic on Carolyn's 
ASJ Collection site 
http://www.asjcollection.com/board/viewthread.php?tid=3191
Don and Amanda give some interesting info!





Iona:
Thanks 
Penski for all the info about guns and Frankie for the link on the 
ASJCollecton site

Penski - I was watching a 
western recently - not sure but it could have been one of the episodes 
in The Magnificent Seven series and one of the characters was in a 
gunfight. His holster was on his right hip but he used his left hand to 
draw and shoot with. It seemed really strange and awkward to me. 
I'd 
never really thought of "remove the gun with the left hand and two 
fingers" before as being difficult.



Sister Grace:


At the risk of opening a can of worms - 
Has the world of ASJ fan fiction every agreed on which types of guns Kid 
and Heyes carried?

It seems that some insist Kid carried a Colt 
Peacemaker, while others are just as sure it was the Smith and Wesson 
Schofield. Monty Laird is quoted somewhere as saying it's a "Dakota", 
whatever that is. It is a little tougher to get a glimpse of Heyes' 
gun, since he doesn't draw it as often as the Kid, but maybe a Colt?

I'm doing some research for a possible future fanfic. I'd appreciate any 
answers or thoughts any of you would like to share on this. I'm also 
devouring past conversations of this subject from other sites and 
reading (again) Jo and Sandy's ASJ bible.



Ghislaine:


Good topic! When I wrote my VS story and posted the beginnings on the old board, I made reference to Kid's Peacemaker. That was questioned so I looked in Sandy and Jo's book and in the back it said he used a Schofield so I changed it in my story. 
I've read different things in different stories.

In case it's useful, here's some history about the Schofield, for those who are 
interested, taken from The Gunfighter: Man or Myth, by Joseph G. 
Rosa (ISBN 0-8061-1561-0): There was a test conducted by the US Board of 
Ordnance of three revolvers in February 1876. "The Schofield took only 
fifty-nine seconds against the Colt's one minute fifty-four seconds and 
the Remington's comparable time. [Ghislaine's note: I'm not clear on 
the models of the other two weapons but I think it's referring to a 
Peacemaker.] During the next few days all three revolvers were subjected 
to very stiff tests for rust and fouling resistance and endurance. As 
the conclusion of the tests it was decided that the Colt was the weapon 
'best adapted to meet all the requirements of the military service.' 
Nevertheless, 8005 Schofields were ordered by the government because the 
Board of ordnance believed that they 'would be in demand by a large 
class of commissioned officers in time of war.' Peacemakers remained 
official side arms of the cavalry until 1892."



beejay:


I didn't know what the Kid used, but I've always assumed Heyes' was a Colt. I actually have no idea where I read or heard that.




Ghislaine:


Here's the actual reference in Sandy and Jo's book about Kid's gun: On P. 126 it says Monty Laird made the "... Smith and Wesson Scofield pistols that Ben used on the show." You can see that the spelling of the model of the gun is different here--I don't 
know what that means.





Sister Grace:



Thanks for the help on this, beejay and Ghis. It would have taken me forever 
to find that specific sentence in the ASJ book! 

As for the spelling (and I won't pretend to know ANYTHING about guns!) it seems you can find it listed using either spelling on the internet, but on the "Smith and Wesson" website, they have it listed only as SCHOFIELD.

Thanks 
again!





Frankie:


Curiouser and curiouser! Is this how myths start?! Having read the Jo and Sandy book I now tend to refer to Kid having a Sc(h)ofield and Heyes has a Colt - perhaps I'll just stick to 'gun' and 'weapon' in the future!




Ghislaine:

I just watched "Miracle at Santa Marta" and, in the scene where Heyes and Kid 
meet Mrs. Hanley for the first time, in her hotel room, about thirty minutes into the episode, she says, speaking to Kid, "He [her husband] was also shot with a Colt .45, which I see you are still wearing."

Either Mrs. Hanley can't tell one gun from another (and why would she, coming 
from Lexington, KY, where her husband didn't normally wear a gun) or else Kid did, in fact, use a Colt, maybe a Peacemaker or maybe some other model. Maybe it all depended on the particular episode. Who knows???

So now I say: Finesse it!





Penski:


One more thought about Kid's gun (and Heyes' gun, also)...Kid lost a few guns (the Mia episode for example) and had to replace them. Who's to say he didn't have a Colt at one time and a Schofield at 
another time. I'm sure he had a favorite brand, but it probably depended on what was available when he needed a gun. So, writers, chose YOUR favorite gun and let the boys shoot with it. 





Sister Grace:


In regards to a previous discussion on the spelling of Scofield/Schofield - You're right, Max. I noticed also that in "the book" they spelled the name of the gun "scofield". Just from surfing around the internet, it seems this is a common spelling or perhaps, mis-spelling among gun traders. The spelling is used enough that I found one gun listed under this heading:

Smith 
& Wesson Replica 1869 Scofield Schofield Pistol

Seeing as how I have no interest a gun, unless it is slung enticingly about the 
hips of Kid Curry or held steadily in his unwavering hand, I'd be 
willing to accept either Smith and Wesson's spelling, or Monty Laird's 
spelling of the word, since he is certainly the ASJ expert!

And Ghis, Yes! Thanks! I also happened to catch that episode during the 
past week and noticed the same line! 

Penski, I agree. I think as many times as Heyes and Kid had their guns taken from them, they probably lost one or two!





Sariya:


I've just been studying the ASJ annual 1977 which has two pages on Western guns, and that picture of Kid from The Fifth Victim (you know the one from the waist down. The gun he is holidng looks as if it could be a Colt Pacemaker as the barrel appears 
to the too long for a Smith and Wesson Scofield.

quote:
I have no interest a gun, 
unless it is slung enticingly about the hips of Kid Curry or held 
steadily in his unwavering hand,

I agree Sister Grace Or unless he is twirling the gun 
then dropping it smoothly back into the holster.




Ghislaine:

Youtube is my new best friend!  Here are links to three videos about guns, which I thought people might find interesting.  I sure did!  The videos range from about eight to ten minutes in duration.



Demonstration of loading and shooting a Colt .45 single-action gun:

ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf6Db1OsAZE

Close-up explanation of how a Colt Peacemaker works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_YFIljic6o

Information about Smith and Wesson Schofields:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq1aCmULae4



nm131:
I'm not a home so I don't have my reference material at hand and the computer I'm using freezes up and won't show videos so I can't look at the youtube videos Ghislaine suggested so I should probably wait BUT ...

The Bounty Hunter is a good episode to see the difference in Heyes and Kid's guns. On the rock when they are going to scare off the Lynch mob, if one can tear their eyes from Kid and Heyes, the way the guns load can clearly be seen. Kid loads his gun from the side of the cylinder turning it as he goes while Heyes's gun breaks between the handle and the cylinder (I haven't memorized gun part names so please excuse the less than technical nomenclature) and loads from the bottom. This breaking of the gun like a hinge, I believe is a feature of a Scofield. Kid's gun is probably meant to be a Colt even though I have read that the Scofield, because of its fast loading capability, was a good choice for gunmen. The colt proved to be extrememly realiable and perhaps that's what mattered more to Kid.



Ghislaine:
I just rewatched that scene from The Bounty Hunter and I can see the difference clearly, too.  And I also noticed that both Kid and Heyes load six bullets into their guns.  Which, from everything I've seen and read, you're not supposed to do--you're supposed to leave one chamber empty so the gun doesn't go off accidentally.  Like, when Kid lays it down on the rock to put his glove back on (and I still don't understand the reason for that).

I just looked at my notes from Tombstone (I kept a journal while travelling and filled up a small notebook) and when I was in one of the stores, my notes say that the Colt doesn't break open but the Schofield does.  I also noted that when I picked up the Colt, it was surprisingly heavy.  So at least in The Bounty Hunter, Kid is not using a Schofield.



Kwiltn:
Well, remembering back to my .45 cal colt pistol days as an army officer, I'd say the Kid would be using that glove for comfort and grip.  Those guns do have quite a kick.  However, if speed was a factor, as in the fast draw, he would remove the glove.



Sister Grace:
Ghislaine wrote:

 Which, from everything I've seen and read, you're not supposed to 
do--you're supposed to leave one chamber empty so the gun doesn't go 
off accidentally. 



My guess on this is that both the guys KNEW their gun wasn't going to go off accidentally.  They were making sure they would go off on purpose, as soon as they got them loaded.  Six times each, to give Joe a chance to get away.



Ghislaine:
sistergrace wrote:  
My guess on this is that both the guys KNEW their gun wasn't going to go off accidentally.


Ya know, I think there's a story in there...


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PostSubject: GUNS GUNS GUNS and more GUNS   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2013 5:09 pm

First off I did not realize I was opening a can of worms here. I should have. But I did not. Shocked

I was talking to my hubby about it and then he too got involved.. the gun enthusiast that he is. I have to thank him, for between my own western gunfighting and his passion for them I have got much better at recognizing them and really good at shooting/handling/cleaning & breaking them down. bandit

So after speaking to him, we sit for an hour looking through images of the guys with their guns. Thank you Lisa's Video Frame Captures http://www.framecaplib.com/asjlib.htm

And here is what I came up with that I know I shall call my own personal canon for now on. sm

I now I know Kid is carrying a Colt although he varies between a Dakota and a Peacemaker. But one thing was positive it was a Colt. The ejector rod was always in the correct location and the frame design stayed consistent as did the butt style/shape. Although the grips did change at times and sometimes his gun did not have the brass butt strap of the Dakota and sometimes it did.

So I think we can say comfortably that Kid Curry was a walking testament for Samuel Colt Manufacturing.

draw Although it did seem he varied at times from a 7 or 11 inch barrel, most often the 11 inch. Which overall does make your distance aim more accurate it is slower to draw. So you are giving up speed -- which if the Kid is the fastest gun in the west drawing an 11 inch barrel that really, really is saying something about how good he was.


safe Now, Heyes he is the interesting one. (isn't he always -- oops sorry Curryettes)

It appears he randomly chooses whichever gun he feels like carrying. We saw Schofields, Colts and complete Hollywood fakes. The Hollywood fakes used to be non firing sculpted guns - probably what Monty Laird is speaking of. And, they were light weight. If you never had to pull your gun for an episode one of these would be nice to carry as believe it or not they do get heavy on your hip after hours in the holster.

So I suppose we can say, Heyes just wears whatever gun feels comfortable to him and when he has to replaced a lost/stolen/confiscated firearm he doesn't much care what he picks up. You think this trait about him would drive the Kid crazy. Would probably make for a good fodder for a story. I mean here is Kid who works so hard to not only maintain his gun but altering it for perfect balance and fast drawn and then here is his partner, carrying whatever seems to fire straight.

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2013 8:39 pm

See the history and canon thread - I apologize for generalizing the boys into carrying Colts in my fiction. I'm just ignorant in that area. I knew it was wrong when I wrote it and thought it was more fun that way. Hope it doesn't spoil things for anyone. As long as they don't carry can(n)ons!
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2013 8:43 pm

No worries, Helen. Most of us have at least Kid carrying a Colt, and both the Dakota and Peacemaker are different models of Colts. For Heyes, I think most of us trend toward the Schofield.
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeFri Apr 12, 2013 5:46 am

HelenWest wrote:
Hope it doesn't spoil things for anyone. As long as they don't carry can(n)ons!
HW

Oh, Helen - there's bunny! You should write it.
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeFri Apr 12, 2013 4:55 pm

Very funny, Silverkelpie - especially since my (long disused) nickname happens to be Bunny!
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeFri Apr 12, 2013 6:07 pm

This was a very interesting conversation! I know diddly squat about hand guns but I suppose, through reading other fanfiction I ended up giving Kid a Colt 45 and Heyes the Schofield. Works for me!!

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeFri Apr 12, 2013 6:23 pm

I think those guns are akin to the magic saddle bags. No matter how many times they get thrown away or taken away by bounty hunters or sheriffs, they always wind up back with their owners, safe and sound. But then, the Kid's Colt also gets the benefit of "the fastest edit in the West."
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeFri Apr 12, 2013 6:28 pm

The same can be said for their horses. No matter how many trains they jump on or stagecoaches they ride they always (or almost always) ended up with the same horses the following week!

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeFri Apr 12, 2013 6:51 pm

Except The Posse that Wouldn't Quit, when Heyes' horse keeps transforming between chestnut and claybank dun! I love the scene crossing the river when Heyes so carefully keeps his boots dry and the Kid can't manage it. No trickery there - what rider, or actor, would want to spend the rest of the day in soaking wet boots? That's another point about the guns - what about when Heyes wrestles the guy in the lake in How to Rob a Bank, and then later his gun is perfectly fine?
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeFri Apr 12, 2013 7:39 pm

Good point HW! Funny how a lot of people didn't notice that, but I suppose you have to be 'horse-oriented' to pick it up. Like me trying to tell the difference between a Colt and Schofield!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2013 9:12 pm

WichitaRed wrote:

safe Now, Heyes he is the interesting one. (isn't he always -- oops sorry Curryettes)

It appears he randomly chooses whichever gun he feels like carrying. We saw Schofields, Colts and complete Hollywood fakes. The Hollywood fakes used to be non firing sculpted guns - probably what Monty Laird is speaking of. And, they were light weight. If you never had to pull your gun for an episode one of these would be nice to carry as believe it or not they do get heavy on your hip after hours in the holster.

So I suppose we can say, Heyes just wears whatever gun feels comfortable to him and when he has to replaced a lost/stolen/confiscated firearm he doesn't much care what he picks up. You think this trait about him would drive the Kid crazy. Would probably make for a good fodder for a story. I mean here is Kid who works so hard to not only maintain his gun but altering it for perfect balance and fast drawn and then here is his partner, carrying whatever seems to fire straight.

Watching the way he limps slightly, and spanks his horse with the tail of his split reins on the off side rather than kicking with that foot, I'm really not surprised that he goes for whatever's lightest to wear.
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2013 10:09 pm

You mean because of the discomfort caused by his pelvic injury? Actually I had never thought of that and often wondered why he would slap the horse rather than just use leg pressure, but it makes sense that if his hips were bothering him then he wouldn't have wanted to put that extra strain on them. Hmm, interesting point.

If that's what you meant, that is! If it isn't what you meant then I'm missing your point and you'll need to explain it to me!!

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2013 10:14 pm

It was said that he rode all strapped up and often in pain. I kind of suspect that's one reason he rode so smoothly - any extra jolts would have hurt horribly. But since the only way to achieve that is to relax, it must have taken a real effort of will.
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2013 11:10 pm

Keays wrote:
You mean because of the discomfort caused by his pelvic injury? Actually I had never thought of that and often wondered why he would slap the horse rather than just use leg pressure, but it makes sense that if his hips were bothering him then he wouldn't have wanted to put that extra strain on them. Hmm, interesting point.

If that's what you meant, that is! If it isn't what you meant then I'm missing your point and you'll need to explain it to me!!

Yes that was what I meant. I know from personal experience with a hip injury that (especially riding over rough country instead of round an arena) after a while it really hurts to kick and it's easier just to spank with the rein tails.

As far as how smooth he rode, I'm picking that's because he and his brother rode bareback as kids and there's no better way to learn to ride!
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeTue Apr 16, 2013 3:29 am

Back on the subject of guns, does anyone know anything about their rifles? I'm writing a long-distance shooting scene and wondering what they'd be firing?
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeTue Apr 16, 2013 8:42 am

In the movie museum at Red Cliffs Lodge, just outside Moab, Utah, there are a few artifacts from when the show filmed there for its third season, including "rifles" that were used in some episodes. I tried to post a photo but it didn't work. If you want to see the pic, please go to my movie blog (second link below) and click on the entry for July 2010 entitled Moab, Utah. Scroll down a bit and you'll see the photo.

And now, offt :

Thank you, Claybank, for explaining why Pete/Heyes used his reins to spur his horse on in some scenes. Years ago on some board or other, I posted a query about that but got no answers. And now I know! But, question: I'm no horse person, so what is the off side of a horse? I mean, I can guess from your statement, but what is the actual definition?

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeTue Apr 16, 2013 1:09 pm

Thank you so much for the link with the pictures!

The 'off side' is the right hand side, as opposed to the 'near side' which is the left. Most horses are saddled and mounted on the left because of the way the gear is designed. It goes back to the early cavalry days when the soldiers would wear a heavy sword on their left hip so they couldn't swing that leg over the horse.
Usually when riding one-handed the reins are held in the left hand to keep the right hand free to draw the sword, the gun, the rope, or whatever the rider needs to do, so when sending your horse off as Heyes does it's easiest to reach down with the right hand, pick up the tail of the reins, and use it behind your leg or on the horse's rump. You can then drop the tail and shoot at the pursuing posse and you haven't altered how your reins contact your horse's mouth through your left hand--you still have control.
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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeTue Apr 16, 2013 5:21 pm

Yes Claybank; I'm going through that right now with my hip so I can totally relate to what Peter went through and it makes it all that more amazing that he could ride so effortlessly when he was in pain. I actually cannot ride at all right now and am having my barn manager's grand-daughter ride my horse for me until I can get healed up--hopefully by early or mid-summer.

It's a real blow to the ego to have to ask someone else to ride your horse!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeThu Apr 18, 2013 4:48 pm

Oh dear Keays I hope that your hip recovers soon so you can get back riding! At least you have someone you can trust to ride your horse for you in the meantime.
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HelenWest

HelenWest

Posts : 388
Join date : 2013-01-13
Age : 58
Location : USA

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeThu Apr 18, 2013 9:35 pm

Good luck with the healing hip, Keays! I'm jealous of both you and Claybank, however. I've never been able to afford my own horse and haven't ridden in years. I think we need a new topic for horse stuff, which I always enjoy.
HW
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Keays

Keays

Posts : 425
Join date : 2012-04-22
Age : 62
Location : Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

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PostSubject: Re: Heyes' and Kid's Guns   Heyes' and Kid's Guns Icon_minitimeThu Apr 18, 2013 9:48 pm

You have no idea what you are suggesting HW! Open up a horse section here and soon, myself and Claybank and InsideOutlaw will run the site into the ground with our horse related bantering!!

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Well, if you don't get killed, I think it's good!
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